I was introducing a friend to B5, and we were watching a
season 1 episode in which Lennier states that there are
2 Minbari castes (religious and warrior). But as we know,
there are really 3 castes.
I'm sure this was discussed before in UseNet, but I must
have missed it.
How was this explained in terms of the "B5 universe",
and what was the real world explanation?
Tx
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Unsu...
Re: Minbari Castes
Tue, November 8, 2005 - 9:58 PMFrom what I remember it was:
Religious
Warrior
Worker
After the Mimbari civil war the worker class was given more power over the other two. -
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Re: Minbari Castes
Wed, November 9, 2005 - 8:42 AMI gathered the worker caste stays more neutral & background, as we never really saw much of them in the series. So if Lanier made that statement, it could be explained as him oversimplifying, or keeping that aspect of their society hidden from an outsider? But the three shared power equally, if I remember right. Been awhile tho... -
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Re: Minbari Castes
Wed, June 7, 2006 - 9:24 PMDo you remember in season 4: episode 80, "Moments of Transition," when Delenn challenged the members of the three castes to choose who would be in power the old way, by standing in the Starfire Wheel in the Temple of Varaini until the two representatives of other castes left or until death?
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Re: Minbari Castes
Fri, September 22, 2006 - 10:38 AMhi does anyone know the history of the WindSwords?I remember an episode about Deathwalker that the Lenier commented that the windswords are the most millitant of warrior castes.Were they a secret society outside the grey council???
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Re: Minbari Castes
Wed, November 9, 2005 - 9:48 AMDo you remember which episode? I'd like to find that tidbit.
Alex, Picking Nits... -
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Re: Minbari Castes
Wed, November 9, 2005 - 9:52 PMYes. "Grail". It is when Lennier and Delenn are
discussing the Minbari effort to find the grail.
Tx
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Re: Minbari Castes
Wed, November 9, 2005 - 9:56 AMThree are three castes as we all know, minbari society is based on 3's. 3 castes, the grey council(at least the one valen designed) was 3 members of the 3 castes. In the episode with the great machine, zathrouis talked about the 3 the ones. The one that was(sinclair/valen) the one that is(Delenn) and the one that will be(Sheridan), Sets of three is a very big theme through out the series. Kosh said that truth and understanding is a three part something, he was describe how there is always 3 perspectives on an event or conflict. Each opposing side and the truth of course. Their are more references to it I can't think of any more right now. -
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Re: Minbari Castes
Wed, November 9, 2005 - 9:54 PMYes, as the story progressed, this became evident.
But as of "Grail" there was not yet any mention of the
worker caste. I wonder if this was a plot point that
had not yet been worked out by JMS... but then I
find that somewhat hard to believe seeing as how
he prided the series on being basically thought out
from the start. Still...
Tx
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Re: Minbari Castes
Thu, November 10, 2005 - 9:49 AM"Truth is a 3 edged sword" was the quote I believe that Kosh made. I use it as a signature line I liked it so well. I always understood it to be "your truth, my truth, and THE truth". I always loved the philosophy that Kosh offered. -
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Re: Minbari Castes
Sun, November 13, 2005 - 1:13 PM> "Truth is a 3 edged sword" was the quote I believe that Kosh made.
Nope, Sheridan said it. Final battle of the Shadow War. He said it just be for telling ALL the old ones to "Get the HELL out of our galaxy!!!"
As to the 2-3 casts. You could explain it as thus. In the context of the conversation, they were discussing things that only "affected" 2 casts. Otherwize... mistake, it happens. The universe is an imperfect place, deal with it. Even The Great Maker isn't infallible.
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rodent (putting the eek in geek) -
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Re: Minbari Castes
Sun, November 13, 2005 - 3:00 PMNope, it was Kosh for sure..I dont remember what episode but he was talking TO Sheridan early in his tuteledge. But I believe it is listed on a audio file on the site I took it from..which i dont remember! ack..Anyway, a minor point really..but it is true..truth IS a 3 edged sword.. -
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Re: Minbari Castes
Wed, November 16, 2005 - 10:34 AMI found two uses of the phrase.
in the first season ep Deathwalker
"Understanding is a three-edged sword." Kosh
in season three ep Ship of Tears
Don't turn your back on me! Don't you even try to walk away from me! Just who the hell do you think you are!? Oh, wait, I know what you think you are, what you want everyone to beleive but I don't buy it! For three years now you've been pulling everyone's strings! Getting us to do all of the work and you haven't done a damn thing but stand there adn look cryptic! Well it's about time you started pulling your weight around here! I hear you've got a saying 'Understanding is a three-edged sword.' Well we've got a saying too. 'Put your money where your mouth is!'" -John Sheridan-
and in season four ep Into the Fire
Oh, but I do understand! And that's what got you worried isn't it? A Vorlon said understanding is a three edged sword. Your side, their side and the truth. Well the truth is, that we don't need you anymore." Sheridan
So, Kosh DID say it, but Sheridan said it twice... so I win :P
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rodent (putting the eek in geek) -
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Re: Minbari Castes
Thu, November 17, 2005 - 10:14 AMI just watched DeathWalker last night, it was a pretty cool episode, I have a question to pose, are the league worlds (Drazi, Pok mara, Etc.) are they in the league because their empires are smaller, or because their tech level is lower then the other "Major Powers" or is it some combonation of both? I the folks in C&C (not Ivanova of course) looked pretty fearful when the Drazi I think they called it a sunfire ship came out the gate, I didn't think the Drazi ship was a match for the armament abroad the station. What do you all think?
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Re: Minbari Castes
Thu, November 17, 2005 - 10:58 AM> or is it some combonation of both?
I think it's a combination. Think of it like the League of Latin American States or the European Commonwealth. Heck, even NATO or the Warsaw Pact could be a good analogy. You could also look to any Balkanized region that reforms under a loose confederacy.
>I didn't think the Drazi ship was a match for the armament abroad the station.
IIRC, B5's fixed armaments are limited and only defensive in the first season (though upgraded later in the ep GROPOS). The Starfuries are the only directly offensive weapondry but are still just the equivelant of airplanes with machine guns. Starfuries are mainly used to ward off piracy and raiders in the area. Small ship to ship dogfights. The Drazi ship jumping in system is a capital ship. It's the equivelant of a Battleship or Destroyer sailing into a New York harbor with only Cesna airplanes to attack it with. Even if NY is packing F-15 fighter jets, a warship from a hostle country entering your harbor is gonna make EVERYONE nervous.
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rodent (putting the eek in geek)
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OT: 3 Edged Swords
Tue, November 22, 2005 - 4:01 PMFarbeit from me to argue with either the Great Maker or the Vorlons: But given Sheridan's second statement "Your side, their side and the truth. Well the truth is, that we don't need you anymore." the Three Edged Sword comment just doesn't fully encompass the idea. Either truth has three sides or a conflict or relations...but I don't see how understanding has three sides.
For instance, Sheridan understood the three sides to the conflicts (Vorlon side, Shadow side, and the truth). -
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Re: OT: 3 Edged Swords
Wed, November 23, 2005 - 8:58 AM>For instance, Sheridan understood the three sides to the conflicts (Vorlon side, Shadow side, and the truth).
Couldn't you argue that each side saw their position as the truth? -
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Re: OT: 3 Edged Swords
Sat, January 21, 2006 - 11:15 AMTruth stands alone, but whenyou interpretate things it is biased. That's why they say justice is blind, even though you may be guilty or innocent, justice sees due process and facts and if factual is not proven then the whole truth is not shown. I think that truth is a combination of all perception and then some.
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Re: Minbari Castes
Mon, November 21, 2005 - 9:48 AMBoth Kosh and Sheridan said it, but Sheridan was repeating Kosh when speaking to the Shadows and the Vorlons. -
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Re: Minbari Castes
Sun, January 22, 2006 - 9:25 AMdoes anyone know why they even bothered with the worker caste? other than the three theme? i can't remember any particularly notable worker caste characters....they all seemed to be warrior or religious.
also, does anyone know if minbari can move between castes? are they born one or chosen?
xxx chi xxx -
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Re: Minbari Castes
Sun, February 12, 2006 - 6:31 AMI'd think that it's because the workers are teh everyday people keeping the society running. "They build teh temples we pray in, the ships you fight in..."
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Re: Minbari Castes
Fri, June 9, 2006 - 11:01 AM> does anyone know why they even bothered with the worker caste?
> other than the three theme?
"Worker" is this strange concept that appears in science-fiction and fantasy. It is a "class" of people who provide "labor" that provides "commodities" and "services" that allow for a "society" to "function."
Why these "societies" in science-fiction and fantasy would allow these "workers" any say in how things are run is beyond me.
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Re: Minbari Castes
Thu, June 15, 2006 - 8:29 PMIt is actually explained away later in one of the books. Socially the workers were not really noticed, or acknowledged. They were percieved as a lower caste without much influential power, at least until Delenn restructured the Grey Council, and thus were not worth mentioning.
